Interview by John McAlister, Senior Editor – Salvationist

Andrew Grenville is the chief research officer of Vision Critical and a member of The Salvation Army’s National Advisory Board. A 20-year research veteran, Andrew leads in the development of innovative and informative analytics and approaches to research. Andrew is the author of numerous Vision Critical research products and measurement tools and focuses on global social and marketing research. This interview appears in the Salvationist publication and offers critical insight about the public’s perception of the Salvation Army.

Salvation Army: What responsibilities come with being the chief research officer at Vision Critical?

Andrew Grenville: I’m a consultant for our researchers. I’m an ideas guy, so I come up with new products and help bring them to life. We have two parts to our company. One part does custom research surveys (known publicly as Angus Reid Public Opinion) and the other part of our business creates software to allow you to do this. We’re one of the world leaders in researching public affairs. I’m part of the executive of Vision Critical, so I work on issues around the day-to-day management of the company. At the moment, I’m also head of operations on a temporary basis.

Salvation Army: As a member of the National Advisory Board, what attracted you to volunteer your time and expertise to The Salvation Army?

Andrew Grenville: The things I admire about The Salvation Army are its true sincerity and its desire to help. When you add to this the efficiency and intelligence with which the Army executes its mandate, it’s a very impressive organization. I appreciate the Army’s passion, sincerity and depth of heart. And I like your slogan, “Heart to God, Hand to Man.”

Salvation Army: According to your research, how does society perceive people in the Church?

Andrew Grenville: The interesting thing is that within Canada, people are remarkably accepting of Christianity. Seventy percent of them consider themselves Christians and over 60 percent of them will agree with the statement, “I have forgiveness of my sins through the life, death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ,” which is a pretty fundamental Christian creedal value.

People are quite accepting of Christians, but we’ve found they are not so accepting of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs, in a way that contradicts how we think of ourselves as an accepting and tolerant nation. This is a very interesting paradox. We might think we’re all accepting of multiculturalism, but in fact, people are much more tentative than we’d expect.

The interesting twist on this one is that Christians might think of themselves as being discriminated against or even persecuted, but Christians who don’t attend church regularly or even non-Christians don’t see this. There’s a sense of persecution that is self-imposed and, unfortunately, counter-productive.

Salvation Army: Many Christians are reticent about sharing their faith for fear of coming across as too aggressive. How do we engage others without alienating them?

Andrew Grenville: The unfortunate thing about the way people broach issues of faith is that it varies between saying nothing and shouting in your face. The most effective way is open and honest discussion. There are no special tricks, it’s just about accepting and engaging the other person—being straight up without shouting, “I am right and you are wrong.” Christians think they need to kind of hide their faith a bit, but there’s no benefit in being cagey about your beliefs.

As I mentioned, in Canada, Christianity is perfectly acceptable, and Christians are very well accepted. It’s a strange paradox that we don’t want to talk about it. If you’re on the subway during rush hour, there are 200 people on a car. One hundred people will pray sometime during the day and 130 of them say they have forgiveness of their sins through Christ, but everyone thinks they’re alone. People get weird when it comes to talking about Christianity, and yet so many people do believe in it. It’s an odd paradox and the Army is caught up in it.

Salvation Army: Many people define themselves as spiritual rather than religious. What do you think they mean by that?

Andrew Grenville: I think it means they’re not interested in organized religion. What we’ve seen happen in Canada is that just after the Second World War, church attendance was about two out of three people. That plummeted to one in three by the 1980s, the trend being a little later and steeper in Quebec. Canadians have moved away from organized religion in a powerful way. In the United States, just after the war, 40 percent were church attendees, but that number has stayed basically the same. The United Kingdom has gone into a total decline.

That is church attendance, but if you look at rates of prayer and belief in basic Christian creeds, those things are remarkably stable. So, we’ve seen a break between believing and belonging. Many people in Canada believe without belonging. Of course, many do still go to church. Almost three quarters go to a Christian church sometime in the year, but people are not so comfortable with organized religion. That follows a path in Canadian society where people have become disillusioned of all large organizations. People have also abandoned the Rotary Club, Kiwanis, bowling leagues and most other organized groups. As a result, people don’t really identify with the Church. Instead of the Church, they talk about their faith and spirituality.

Also, people of different faiths use the term spirituality—it’s very broad in its definition. It speaks to a common urge to have a relationship with a deity or a sense of something beyond the physical.

Salvation Army: What factors have led people to move away from churches and other organized groups?

Andrew Grenville: It’s part of a larger pattern. As a society, we have lost faith in larger groups, so our confidence in government, big business, unions, lawyers, doctors and ministers has declined. We’re distrustful of large organizations and the Church is part of that. I don’t know if that’s a permanent thing. For example, at the turn of the 20th century, church attendance was much lower. Church attendance and organizational belonging goes up and down. Right now we’re not showing signs of pulling out of church, but society goes through ebbs and flows, and the Church is affected by the culture in which it lives. Where we find ourselves is not a surprise.

Salvation Army: Have you found that Christians are quantifiably different in their approach to charity?

Andrew Grenville: Sure. We’ve done lots of research and so have others, and it all shows that committed Christians are much more likely to be volunteering, donating money and engaging in their society. This could be a chicken or egg question. For example, are there people of faith who aren’t socially engaged so they don’t go to church? However, particularly when it comes to donations, Christians are acting on their faith. It’s what you would expect, but it’s always good to see.

Salvation Army: Compared to other Christian denominations, The Salvation Army possesses strong branding. How do we capitalize on this strength?

Andrew Grenville: By putting it front and centre. You could tell people that you’re helping others without putting the brand at the front, but The Salvation Army is good at keeping the Red Shield there, and naming who they are. Direct, honest communication with identifiable branding is a real strength. It could go against you, if someone was against the Church, but in general it is a real strength.

The Salvation Army is smart about putting the Red Shield, the uniform and the name of the church right up front. A lot of organizations don’t do this, but The Salvation Army is right up there with Tim Hortons and Canadian Tire in terms of being up front and consistent at advertising the good they do.

If anything, the Army could shout out more about what it’s doing to help others in society, because I don’t think people understand the enormity of what you are doing.

Salvation Army: Within The Salvation Army there is sometimes a tension between the church side and the social service side. Some people think it’s a threat to our church growth that the public associates us more with our social services.

Andrew Grenville: I can see that tension completely. It’s because The Salvation Army punches above its weight socially. As a church, it’s not that large, but its social impact is huge, so I can see how after a while as a church member you don’t want to be known as the Harbour Light or homeless shelter anymore. But I think the Army should be incredibly proud of what it does in terms of fulfilling what Christ set out as the objectives of the Church: to care for others and look out for the sick and the poor. Compared to other evangelical churches, The Salvation Army does a stellar job. It’s very focused. I can see how you could get tired of that, but it’s a distinctive of who you are. If you step back and see what you are accomplishing, you’ll feel proud. Don’t get tired of being famous for what you do.

Salvation Army: With declining membership, should The Salvation Army be worried about the future? How do we adapt without compromising our identity?

Andrew Grenville: Yes, the future is always a concern. The Salvation Army arose with a style and mission at a particular point in time, but Christ didn’t say, “You shall have this style.” In fact, the Church has manifested itself in all sorts of ways.

Part of the Army’s strength was its birth in a particular culture. But things have changed and the Army doesn’t fit into the culture in the same way. And that’s obviously an issue. If the church is not as attractive because it doesn’t seem to be in the moment, then looking forward, that’s a problem. I’m not suggesting that The Salvation Army should change its core or character, but the reality is that when you’re not in step with the culture, the same forces that gave birth to the Army and made it attractive in society will cut against it and make it less attractive and less in tune with the times.

Salvation Army: In terms of social media, what trends are emerging and how will they impact charities and churches?

Andrew Grenville: Social media is another way of connecting, talking and exchanging information. I think people have overreacted to it because of its novelty. People and businesses have panicked, saying they need to do a viral video on their website and want people to become friends with their brand. The reality is that those who consume and absorb social media are also watching television, reading the newspaper and reading magazines. They’re getting messages from all these other sources, so the main thing is being consistent in your message with people.

People are very mistrustful of social media. It has the least credibility of all the media. And if a medium is not credible, people are not likely to remember it. Despite the fact that social media has attracted so much attention, the reality is that nothing has changed except that another medium has emerged. It’s new and novel, but has low credibility.

Salvation Army: As we share our message through various media, how do we avoid turning Jesus into a commodity or making faith commercial? Sometimes we’re so anxious to get our message out that we over-market it or make it too cute, especially when trying to attract younger people.

Andrew Grenville: It’s hard, because you want to make it attractive, and the Army feels the tension between the uniform, and all that represents socially, and the desire to be in the moment. I think what works in selling anything is a bold simplicity—just being what you are and playing to your true strengths. I think the Army does live out its motto of “Heart to God, Hand to Man.” I think the thing that’s truly attractive about the Army is that it lives its faith. It’s not hearing a rousing sermon and having warm thoughts about doing nice things. It’s about actually doing good stuff.

Teens are interested in sincerity and what is real—not just putting on the show, but the depth of character that’s there. The one thing the Army has is its depth of character. If you try to make it cute and deny the Army-ness of it, you’ve become a little overeager, and you don’t need to be. The Army has something real and valid. If you kick the tires, you sense real depth and that’s not something that everybody can claim. There are a lot of organizations that are attractive but have no depth.

Salvation Army: Is plurality of religions in Canada leading toward a clash of cultures or increased dialogue and harmony?

Andrew Grenville: Based on the research we did on Canadians’ attitudes toward other religions, there isn’t the kind of tolerance I would have hoped for, but it is also clear that the more likely you are to know someone that is a Muslim or a Sikh, the more likely you are to accept them and to appreciate their culture and beliefs. The more that Canadians talk to each other and are exposed to each other’s cultures, the more we’re likely to move toward harmony. When people talk to each other and get past the stereotypes and preconceptions, they find out they have a lot in common and that they all want the same things.

In Canada, we strive towards civility. I did a piece for CBC’s The National and they were asking if Canadians are nice. Canadians have a remarkable value of civility—we hold the door for each other, line up in queues and don’t shove. These things are not common around the world. What makes Canada unique in the world is that when you look at Toronto and realize half the people were born in another country, somehow this culture of niceness is shared among all groups. This civility―politeness and consideration―is a huge part of our society, so that when people arrive from all over the world, people are socialized quickly.

I’m hopeful that as we understand each other and get together in Canadian society, we will learn to respect each other and that our Canadian values will have roots in the same place as The Salvation Army so that we can all make a difference.

About the Salvation Army

The Salvation Army is an international Christian organization that began its work in Canada in 1882 and has grown to become the largest non-governmental direct provider of social services in the country. The Salvation Army gives hope and support to vulnerable people today and everyday in 400 communities across Canada and 117 countries around the world. The Salvation Army offers practical assistance for children and families, often tending to the basic necessities of life, provides shelter for homeless people and rehabilitation for people who have lost control of their lives to an addiction.